TUCKER CARLSON: IN THE MEANTIME, WE’RE HAPPY TO HAVE ONE OF THE VERY FEW PEOPLE IN AMERICAN JOURNALISM WHO UNDERSTOOD EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING ON LONG BEFORE MOST OF US DID AND WROTE ABOUT IT EXTENSIVELY. GLENN GREENWALD, A FREQUENT GUEST OF THE SHOW, THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING ON.
I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF LEVELS HERE. I HAVE LEARNED IN THE LAST WEEK THAT IN WASHINGTON THE FACT THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS READING OUR EMAILS IS NO BIG DEAL AND YOU’RE LIKE A NUTCASE FOR EVEN NOTING IT OR BEING BOTHERED BY IT. YOU SHOULD HAVE NO EXPECT TATIAN OF PRIVACY WHATSOEVER. BUT I THINK, AND YOU WOULD KNOW, THE FEDERAL LAW IS PRETTY CLEAR ON THIS.
IF NSA CAPTURES INFORMATION SENT PRIVATELY BY THE AMERICAN CITIZEN THEY HAVE TO KEEP THAT CITIZEN’S IDENTITY SECRET UNLESS THEY GO THROUGH A PROCESS TO “UNMASK” IT. IT SEEMS VERY CLEAR THEY DID EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO.
GLENN GREENWALD: YEAH. I THINK THERE’S TWO IMPORTANT COMPONENTS. ONE IS THE FIRST ONE THAT YOU JUST REFERENCED, WHICH IS THAT IF THEY WERE DOING THIS PERFECTLY LEGALLY, MEANING THEY INTERCEPTED YOUR EMAIL COMMUNICATIONS WITH LEGAL AUTHORITY BECAUSE YOU ARE TALKING EITHER TO THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT WHICH THEY OBVIOUSLY ARE ALLOWED TO SPY ON, OR TO A TARGET IN THE UNITED STATES WHO YOU WERE USING AS AN INTERMEDIARY AND THEY LEARNED THAT WAY THAT YOU WERE COMMUNICATING WITH THE RUSSIANS ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF AN INTERVIEW WITH PUTIN, THEY HAVE THE LEGAL OBLIGATION TO CONCEAL YOUR IDENTITY AND MAKE SURE THAT NOBODY KNOWS THAT YOU WERE THE ONE THAT WAS SPEAKING TO THE RUSSIANS. THE INTELLIGENCE THAT THEY CARE ABOUT IS THAT THE RUSSIANS WERE DOING SOMETHING, NOT WITH WHOM THEY WERE SPEAKING.
SO CLEARLY THERE WAS EITHER A FAILURE TO HIDE YOUR IDENTITY AS REQUIRED BY LAW, WHICH IS ILLEGAL, OR AN ATTEMPT TO UNMASK IT AFTER IT WAS MINIMIZED, WHICH ALSO WOULD BE A CRIME GIVEN THAT THERE IS NO NATIONAL SECURITY JUSTIFICATION FOR DOING IT.
THERE’S SOMETHING MUCH MORE SERIOUS, TUCKER, WHICH IS WHEN THE NSA SPIES ON AMERICAN CITIZENS SPEAKING TO FOREIGN NATIONALS AND FOREIGN OFFICIALS, EVEN WHEN IT’S LEGAL, THAT’S A VERY GRAVE POWER. SO THERE ARE REAL LIMITS ON WHAT THEY CAN DO WITH THAT. IT IS ONE OF THE GREATEST CRIMES IN THE U.S. CODE FOR THE NSA TO LEAK THE CONTENTS OF COMMUNICATIONS THAT IT INTERCEPTS BETWEEN A FOREIGN OFFICIAL AND AN AMERICAN CITIZEN.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GOT OVERLOOKED IS THAT IN 2017, WHEN GENERAL FLYNN, WHO WAS IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF THE ENTIRE DEEP STATE UNDER OBAMA, WAS SPEAKING WITH AMBASSADOR KISLYAK, THEY LEAKED THE CONTENTS OF THAT COMMUNICATION, INTERCEPTED COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN A RUSSIAN OFFICIAL AND THE INCOMING NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR TO “THE WASHINGTON POST.” IT WAS AS GRAVE OF A CRIME AS IT GETS UNDER THE U.S. CODE TO THIS DAY. NOT ONLY DON’T WE KNOW WHO DID THE LEAKING, NO ONE CARES BECAUSE THEY HATE GENERAL FLYNN, HE’S NOT THEIR IDEOLOGY AND THEREFORE THEY THINK IT’S
JUSTIFIED.
THAT’S THE REACTION HERE. OH, IT’S TUCKER CARLSON, HE’S A CONSERVATIVE, WE DON’T LIKE HIM AND SO WE DON’T EVEN CARE IF THE NSA WAS DOING THIS, BUT IT IS ILLEGAL TO DO EITHER OF THOSE TWO THINGS.
TUCKER CARLSON: AND FLYNN, IT’S NOT AN ATTACK ON FLYNN OR ANYTHING BUT LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE HE WAS UNDER ATTACK AND HE WENT ON THE DEFENSIVE AND THEN HE REMAINED SILENT AND HE DIDN’T ARTICULATE HIS OWN CASE AND MAYBE HIS LAWYERS TOLD HIM NOT TO OR SOMETHING, BUT IF YOU WERE PERSISTENT IN DEMANDING–LOOK, HE’S AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, YOU MAY NOT LIKE MY POLITICS, BUT YOU’RE NOT ALLOWED TO VIOLATE MY RIGHTS AND BREAK THE LAW.
I MEAN, I WONDER IF YOU COULD FORCE THEM TO ADMIT WHAT HAPPENED AND THEN YOU COULD FORCE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY. NO ONE IN THESE AGENCIES, BRENNAN, CLAPPER, THEY LIED UNDER OATH BEFORE CONGRESS. WE PLAYED THE TAPE A THOUSAND TIMES. NOBODY CARES, NOBODY DOES ANYTHING. COULD YOU ACTUALLY FORCE THE SYSTEM TO HOLD THESE UNACCOUNTABLE LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE FOR ONCE?
GLENN GREENWALD: THE PROBLEM IS THERE ARE SO MANY DOCTRINES THAT THE… THE SECURITY STATE HAS EXISTED SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II. THEY’VE BEEN OPERATING IN SECRET AND WITH NO DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY FOR EIGHT OR NINE DECADES NOW. DWIGHT EISENHOWER WHEN HE LEFT OFFICE WARNED THE COUNTRY ABOUT THE DANGERS THAT THEY POSE.
SO MANY TIMES WHEN PEOPLE HAVE GONE TO SUE THE NSA FOR ILLEGALLY SPYING ON THEM THEY HAVE DOCTRINES THAT THEY USE, THEY WILL SAY IT’S TOO SECRET, WE CAN’T HAVE COURTS LOOKING INTO WHAT WE DID, BECAUSE THAT WILL JEOPARDIZE NATIONAL SECURITY. AND THEN COURTS DISMISSED THE LAWSUIT. OR THEY WILL SAY, TUCKER CARLSON CAN’T PROVE THAT WE ACTUALLY SPIED ON HIM, THEREFORE HE HAS NO STANDING TO SUE AND COURTS WILL DISMISS THAT AS WELL.
THE REMEDY HERE IS FOR CONGRESS — IT’S CONGRESS’ RESPONSIBILITY TO EXERCISE OVERSIGHT HOW THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH SPIES ON PEOPLE. AND FOR SO LONG CONGRESS HAS BEEN EITHER AFRAID OF THE NSA AND THE CIA OR WORSE, SUBSERVIENT TO THEM. AND YOU’RE RIGHT, IT HAS BEEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ALONG WITH DEMOCRATS THAT HAS LONG VENERATED THESE AGENCIES AND ONLY UNDER TRUMP DID THEY START TO REALIZE ACTUALLY THESE AGENCIES INTERFERE IN OUR POLITICS AND THREATEN OUR DEMOCRACY IN REALLY PERNICIOUS WAYS, AND THAT THEY NEED TO TAKE THAT KNOWLEDGE THAT THEY LEARNED OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS AND USE IT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT HAPPENED HERE.
TUCKER CARLSON: SO I SPOKE TO – THIS IS NOT SPECULATION, THIS IS A CONVERSATION I HAD PERSONALLY FACE-TO-FACE WITH SOMEONE I THOUGHT WAS A VERY POWERFUL MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE THAT OVERSEES THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES IN CONGRESS. I CAN’T BE MORE SPECIFIC. THIS IS A TRUE STORY. TWO YEARS AGO TOLD ME TO MY FACE THAT HIS COMMUNICATIONS WERE BEING MONITORED BY THE INTEL AGENCIES, THE ONES THAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE OVERSEEING AND THAT HE DIDN’T DARE TEXT ME BECAUSE HE KNEW THEY WERE READING HIS TEXTS.
AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF THIS SYSTEM IS COMPLETELY DYSFUNCTIONAL IF THE PERSON WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE IS AFRAID OF THEM, THEN WHO’S IN CHARGE HERE? IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY ARE.
GLENN GREENWALD: WE LEARNED — THIS IS ONE OF THE BIG SCANDALS OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THAT WHEN THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE WAS INVESTIGATING THE CIA AND THEIR ROLE IN THE INTERROGATION PROGRAM AT GUANTANAMO AND ELSEWHERE, JOHN BRENNAN, CIA, SPIED ON THE LEADER OF THAT SENATE INVESTIGATION, WHICH WAS DIANE FEINSTEIN. THE CIA WAS SPYING ON THE SENATE AS THE SENATE WAS INVESTIGATING THE CIA. THE MOST SIGNIFICANT EXCHANGE – I THINK I TALKED ABOUT THIS ON YOUR SHOW BEFORE, WAS THREE DAYS BEFORE TRUMP WAS INAUGURATED, CHUCK SCHUMER WENT ON THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW AND RACHEL MADDOW WAS VERY UPSET THAT TRUMP WAS INSULTING THE CIA BECAUSE SHE LOVES THE CIA AND CHUCK SCHUMER SAID THE THING YOU’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO SAY ALOUD, WHICH IS TRUMP IS BEING STUPID BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS THAT IF YOU CHALLENGE THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, THEY HAVE SIX DIFFERENT WAYS TO SUNDAY TO GET BACK AT YOU AND THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT THEY PROCEEDED TO DO OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS IS UNDERMINE HIS ADMINISTRATION.
PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON ARE PETRIFIED OF THE SECURITY STATE AND THAT’S WHY THEY EXIST WITH NO DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY.
TUCKER CARLSON: WELL, WE HAVE TO PUSH BACK. IF THEY FIND A METH LAB IN MY BASEMENT, IT’S NOT REAL, JUST SO THAT YOU KNOW. HA, HA. JUST KIDDING, SORT OF. I’VE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT THAT FOR YEARS. GLENN GREENWALD, GREAT TO SEE YOU TONIGHT. THANK YOU.
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